Comment on The Blacks & the Greens

  1. SweetestPopcorn on Chapter 2 Mon 12 Aug 2019 12:57PM UTC

    Thanks for your comment :)

    That isn't has straightforward as you may think for many reasons (I will try to be brief).

    1- No law had ever been made that said that an older daughter couldn't inherit the crown over a younger son. Period. Although in the past boys had been placed before girls (in 92 AC and in the great Council of 101, as well as in the princess Rhaena versus her brother Jaehaerys etc). There was no law. There was Andal law sure but Targaryens didn't follow Andal laws in a lot of things.

    2- If there was no law, then the King could decide. And the king had decided and confirmed the decision over and over again. First he decided to favor his daughter over his brother and then over his son. Rhaenyra was the heir, not Aegon. If there had been validity to pass over Daemon then the same arguments (though I give it a bit more stretched) could be used to pass over Aegon - there was no law + king had the power to decide.

    3- Another argument that favored Rhaenyra that Lord Beesbury used and that I found particularly interesting- Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than Aegon did. And this actually makes a lot of sense. You see again and again that people accepted the Targaryen way because they were not like them, they were almost gods, their blood was different. But Aegon was only half Targaryen, and many had frowned upon Viserys's choice of marriage, so in this field Rhaenyra also beats him.

    So you see, the only thing really in Aegon's favor was what had been done in the past (which does not equate with a law). Of course I get why people thought he should be the king and why his mother fought for him (which mother wouldn't?) but then again - no law + Rhaenyra was older+ more Targaryen blood+ the king had decided.

    About Aemond, if the eye thing is because you like him, no judgment XD if it is because you hope he doesn't claim Vhagar that I cannot say sorry :3 thanks for reading, much love your way

    Comment Actions

    1. NC (Guest) on Chapter 2 Mon 12 Aug 2019 04:41PM UTC

      Rhaenyra's mother was Half-Targaryen, I know it's not how genetics work, but lets say Rhaenyra is 75%. This would give her bastards 37.5% which is the main reason in canon I wouldn't support her. Aegon was lets say 50%, but he married his sister so his kids had 50% Targ to Hightower Ratio and would marry each other to keep it at 50%.

      "While Viserys loved his younger brother, despite his flaws, he had no wish for Daemon to succeed him. Viserys was hopeful that his wife would give him a son soon and settle the succession issue."

      "Fearful of Daemon becoming king, Otto tried to convince Viserys to make Rhaenyra his heir. Viserys refused, as he was confident he and his wife would one day have a son. Aemma later became pregnant, to the king's delight."

      Rhaenyra was already displaced once when her younger brother Baelon 'heir for a day' was born. It is clearly said that Viserys named her heir to keep Daemon away from the throne and he didn't have anyone else to name: "After the mourning period was over Viserys held a lavish ceremony in 105 AC and had Rhaenyra declared the heir and Princess of Dragonstone in response to his ungrateful brother's ambitions." In canon Rhaenyra married him without permission and Viserys was angry, but eventually accepted it. Viserys refused to make Rhaenyra heir until Daemon made fun of his dead son.

      Aegon I before he became King, was Lord of Dragonstone, although he has an older sister. "Aegon Targaryen, Lord of Dragonstone, accepted an alliance with Pentos and Tyrosh against Volantis, flew to Lys, and set ablaze a Volantene fleet preparing to invade the city."
      This suggests that the Targaryens used male primogeniture even before taking Westeros. There is also Maegor(son of eldest sibling) coming after Aenys' line. Jaehaerys coming before Aerea. Baelon before Rhaenys and lastly Viserys before Laenor. Uncles have come before daughters twice already, which suggests thte Rhaenyra being heir was not implicit, but she passed over Daemon when being named heir. He only called the lords to swear to her once, before Aegon was born. He did not reaffirm her as heir, he just failed to change it, or call the lords to swear her fealty again.
      Dorne was the only Kingdom that followed the law that the eldest child inherits, and Dorne wasn't a part of the Kingdom.

      Guess the reason fandom can't agree on it was the reason there was a war lol! Interesting story so far and I like it, It will be interesting to see if the Hightower Targs/Rhaenyra's children will get along better if they're not bastards...

      Kudos!

      Comment Actions

      1. SweetestPopcorn on Chapter 2 Mon 12 Aug 2019 05:30PM UTC

        We agree on pretty much everything NC XD and the "Velaryon" princes' genetic you are super correct and I am with you on those percentages X'D. In fact, I think you are super right on that one and we clearly see from F&B that one of the reasons some lords didn't stand with her was because of her sons and presumed heir (though in this fic the fact that her heirs are Aegon and Viserys just takes care of that issue, they are clearly Targaryen and they are about
        87.5% Targaryen so they would win against any potential children Aegon and Helaena would have).

        But for argument sake just comparing Rhaenyra and Aegon and forgetting their children she would win.

        Still, everything you said is correct but again: No Law. No explicit law, and if the king had said so it was his wish and hey he was king. And, if he said she was heir, and if he even sat her child on his labp saying "one day all of this will be yours" or something of the sort sorry don't want to grab my copy of F&B, why would he have to continuously repeat himself? It was stated and he never did anything to change it- another argument used by Beesbury. It's easy for us to look from the outside and think "Mmm you should have said it again Viserys" but he was king! He was taught that his word was law!

        So, to sum it up. Again just comparing the two on the genetics thing Rhaenyra won over Aegon. No law existed that stated that a woman couldn't inherit the crowd+ Viserys publicly aknowleged her as heir + never did anything to change it = she was his heir.

        Now if your argment is, you still think Aegon II should have ruled that is 110% ok. And in fact many lords thought the same. But (and big but) that was because it was how things had always been done, not because of any law and objectively speaking sorry but Rhaenyra was the heir. And when in doubt XD let's see what the Starks think because if there is a family that would do the correct thing even if they would have to die, it's them.

        Again it's totally ok if you preffer the Greens and I can see your motives. Nothing against, everyone likes what they like and it's their thing. Personally I don't like them. At all. Yet I understand their motivations, like what mother in those days would just stand there and take it as her son was passed over by a daughter? I am guessing not many (perhaps a Stark XD) Though I think they are mainly to blame, specially Aemond. The Blacks did their share of awful things too and in wars no one is 100% right or wrong, and if I was on the Greens' shoes I can't say I wouldn't have done the same or something of the sort.

        Although I like to play around with AU's and what not in reality the Dance ended how it should would end. Neither Rhaenyra or Aegon II could win (as much as I love Rhaenyra). But my favorite princess did win in a way, Aegon III became king and the Targaryens we see on GOT are her descendents. As Twyin would say legacy is all that matters XD

        Anyway I am glad you are liking the story ;)

        Comment Actions

        1. NC (Guest) on Chapter 2 Mon 12 Aug 2019 05:59PM UTC

          I can still enjoy things enjoy things even if I disagree with it, especially with how well written this, they whole story about ASOIAF is about the human heart in conflict with itself, Bad people doing good thinks and good people doing back things, internal conflicts about what is right. Both sides both have good arguments for the crown. Generally if I was a Lord in Westeros I would've supported Aerea/Rhaenys over their uncles, and would've supported Rhaenyra over Daemon as that is the law that the Westerosi Lords follow except from the Dornishmen. The Starks were only convinced to join the Blacks after the Pact of Ice and Fire wedding/marriage pact, same as when the Tully's joined the rebellion to coax marriages from the North and the Vale. The Baratheon's joined the greens for a marriage.

          Would you have supported Daemon Blackfyre over Daeron II if Aegon IV named him prince of dragonstone over his elder brother?

          Comment Actions

          1. SweetestPopcorn on Chapter 2 Mon 12 Aug 2019 06:33PM UTC

            I mean… Daemon Blackfyre was hotter plus his first name is Daemon so… just kidding XD

            Daeron. He was the older son and there were specific laws for that. Even if Daemon had been legitimized he was still younger. Plus Aegon IV never said that Daemon was his heir, the fact that he gave him the sword Blackfyre was what made people think he wanted Daemon to be the next king. But I look forward to knowing more about the issue in F&B 2 (please George write it please).

            Who would you have supported?

            Comment Actions

            1. NC (Guest) on Chapter 2 Mon 12 Aug 2019 07:47PM UTC

              The point I was trying to make was that the eldest son is the heir, no matter if the king arbitrarily decides to change that. Whilst I hold firm that Daeron II is a bastard, born of Aemon and Naerys because of all of the parallels to Robert and Cersei, If he was truly Aegon IV's son then the throne is his, by right. No matter if Aegon tries to strip him of his birth right and name his younger brother Prince of Dragonstone. If Viserys named Aemond or Daeron his heir, I'd still support Aegon because he's the eldest son. I would only follow Daemon if Daeron was a bastard, since he hasn't been legitimised and would be born of a younger brother Daemon would come first.

              Because his bastardy wasn't proven (though GRRM makes it pretty clear) Daeron was legally his eldest son and Daemon would be a usurper if he tried to claim it, same with Rhaenrya imo, she should've let Jacaerys inherit Dragonstone and Lucerys inherit Driftmark. After the Dance, the succession laws only said that a woman can't inherit in the place of a male Targaryen, it didn't explicitly say younger sons can't inherit. That doesn't make Aegon naming Daeron legal or right.

              I'd rather have TWOW over F&B 2, but F&B was a lot better than I expected, loved the reign of Jaehaerys the most in F&B 1. Can't wait for what happened at Summerhall to be revealed, what happened to Aemond's son, Lyonel Baratheon's rebellion and more detail on the Blackfyre rebellions.

              What would you think if Viserys named Aemond (who most people don't like) as his heir? Or his Uncle Vaegon the master if he's still alive. Or one of Saera's sons from Lys? Would you support whoever the King chose?

              Comment Actions

              1. SweetestPopcorn on Chapter 2 Mon 12 Aug 2019 07:58PM UTC

                XD by all means think whatever you want. Bottom line: There was no law stating that a son would inherit the crown before an older daughter. So you can go on with that logic and still, prior to the Dance, there was no such law. Hence, Rhaenyra could be the heir and was named as such. If you want to believe she couldn't go ahead it doesn't change things so this is just being pointless. I thought you had moved on to a better topic but I guess not.

                Comment Actions

                1. NC (Guest) on Chapter 2 Mon 12 Aug 2019 08:15PM UTC

                  I apologise if I've insulted you, it wasn't my attention, I won't mention it again, doesn't really matter anyway since it's an AU, I'll just read the next chapters and continue with the story, I'm on chapter 3 so far and it's going well

                  Comment Actions

                  1. SweetestPopcorn on Chapter 2 Mon 12 Aug 2019 08:19PM UTC

                    Of course you haven't, but we should just agree to disagree on that one ;) I hope you enjoy the rest of the story NC and thank you for reading.

                    Comment Actions